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The Spec is pending and needs your requirements
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A critical "feature" not mentioned is the ability to operate without sounding like a vacuum cleaner.
Some existing POE switches have great functionality but generate 60-70dB of noise. They sound very much like vacuum cleaners. It is as if the manufacturer designed these switches be placed in some cabinet in a basement datacenter far away from any people.
Since I'm assuming this is a prosumer switch, which will go into people's homes, including in closets adjacent to offices, living rooms, and bedrooms, noise levels need to be calibrated accordingly. Ideally, the unit would be silent or close to it. This may impact design decisions related to form factor or features.
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I also like the prior suggestion with 10G POE++ and SFP tweaks:
2x 10G POE++
6x 2.5G POE+
8x 2.5G non-POE
2x 10G SFP (or 2x 10G non-POE)High-powered WiFi 7 (and later) 4x4 access points will likely be the only common use cases for POE++. I’m not aware of any newer 2.5G POE++ devices.
I like the idea of keeping the number of POE+ and POE++ ports to 8 or fewer, recognizing that those ports generate significant heat and consume a lot of power, and thus the need for more and faster (and noisier) fans.
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Most PoE switches also do not provide enough power to run every switch at full power. For instance you see something like an 8 port PoE+ switch with 150-200w of power (or sometimes even far less). That would mean 8 ports at 30 watts should be 240w power supply for them. But since nearly every device that says it needs Poe+ often runs closer to 10-15w most of the time and only bursts up higher draw when under heavier load then the switches don't necessarily need to be able to provide a continuous 240w.
So in designing this you should decide if you want to sell this in a manner the rest of the industry has adopted and say something like "8 PoE+ (150w maximum)" or if you want to build so it can do it all continuous and have to also charge a premium for a higher spec unit than most other companies sell.
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I think a full power brick with variable speed fan will do the trick.
Rarely would it vacuum clean your selves.
I think I will put the FireWalla WiFi 7 on the top self, Hold Pro then, and any switch at ny easy reach.
Note
I would so very much like a small touch screen to control all the stuff without a laptop. -
When talking managed versus unmanaged, I don’t know how many non Firewalla router users would be interested in a Firewalla managed switch; what features would it have as a standalone switch that other switches do not? Would making the Firewalla switch more of a port augmentation / supplement that works as if it were a managed switch when compared to a Firewall unit “managed” by the FW box, but is an unnamed switch in other setups be something that the community is interested in or might save cot?
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6x 2.5G
2x 2.5G PoE
6x10G ethernet
2x 10G ethernet PoE2x10G SPF+
Or if it's simpler all 16 RJ45 10G ports with a few PoE capable + 2x SPF+
Managed obviously, no point to make an unmanaged switch there are plenty of these for cheap on the market, managed switch are more complex. I'm using a TP-Link because they are affordable but their software is very clunky.
However I would be much more interested in Wifi 7 AP's before a switch, most of us already have switches, it's a mature market, Wifi 7 is just getting started however, AP's just start hitting the market, I see cost is dropping as well which is good, nobody is going to spend $500 for an AP. -
@Firewalla
Look up the video "First Look! UniFi Pro Max 16 PoE Switch" on Youtube. This will be one of your main competitors that just came out. Obviously yours wont have Etherlighting, but it is 16 port, with 4 ports of 2.5gb, and PoE+ and Poe++, as well as 2x 10gb SFP+ for a price of $399. You will likely have to at the very least match this spec and pricing to get people wanting to buy it. I feel like if you know you cant hit this price point and feature level for ports then it probably isnt even worth doing since there is so much in the switch space already for cheap with 2.5gb ports.
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@Firewalla
What would be the cost increase if the switches were DCB-capable? Most switches that are not enterprise grade do not support these features, which means you cant run RoCE on them. Perhaps if your switches had the hardware features required (likely a specific switch chip?) it could be a major selling point to everyone doing home labs, SOHO, and maybe even SMB customers?
The primary hardware features for this are 802.1Qbb, 802.1Qaz, 802.1Qau, and DCBX with runs over LLCP.
https://1.ieee802.org/dcb/802-1qbb/
https://1.ieee802.org/dcb/802-1qaz/
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The way I see it is :
Lots have said there are lots of switches on the market, which I agree with,however many are from manufacturers I haven't heard of and therefore are reluctant to trust. I know Firewalla, so would trust them.
As far as size and features, I feel 8 ports is enough, if I need more I'll chain them, this will keep the cost down to the home user that hasn't gone all technical on their house! 😂
As far as POE, if we want the thing to last, then it must allow POE++ as this is what the new standard is.
Software wise I would expect it to use the firewalla interface so I get a new section to monitor / test ports from the switch.
That's my 2 cents worth on reflection
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I am going to propose a minimum of 3 - 10Gb ports.
A "mesh" wifi can have a router and two satellites. (Sure, can there be more satellites, but we are talking largely a "home" user base and I wonder how many homes have more than 3 access points.)
Hence 10G from the ISP to the Firewalla. 10G from Firewalla to the wifi router (in access point mode). We would then need 10G from the wifi router (again in access point mode) to this new switch. Finally we would need an additional 2- 10G ports on this new switch to go to each of the satellites. Hence, a need for at minimum 3 - 10G ports.
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I currently use this switch: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-3216r-8s8t
To replace it, I would love to see the following (possibly in the Firewalla Switch pro):
- min 4 SFP+
- min 12 (preferred 16) multi-speed ports
- optional 4 with POE+ (or ++)A min price of $750 would be acceptable
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I have lots of POE cameras, so please take in consideration people like me who need managed all POE ports with possibility to turn off the power individually for each port, that’s mandatory for me, or I will have no need for such switche. How many ports I won’t tell you, whatever you think is good for the market
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I currently have a UniFi Enterprise 8 PoE switch (8 x 2.5 GbE PoE+, 2 x SFP+), I'm generally happy, but I am in the process of switching away from UI kit.
I'd like to see a switch with a similar form factor to the Firewalla Gold Pro and the ports/capabilities of the UniFi USW ENT-8-PoEI'd prefer it to be quiet enough to not need to be in a cabinet, have 1 or 2 of the ports support PoE++, capable of connecting to the Gold Pro via DAC and accept multi-gig SFP transceivers. Possibly controversially, I'd like to be able to connect a few client devices via their TB4/USB4 ports, i.e. have a couple of USB-C/TB ports additionally on the switch.
Finally, power the switch using USB-C, USB PD 3.1 specifies up to 240 W[EDIT]
To manage Multicast IPTV streaming, it would help if the switch was SDVoE compliant. -
Yes, finally.
2.5Gb minimum please, a few maybe 2-3 POE enabled and then MSP will probably want 10Gb and at least 16 ports by the looks of it in a 1U, however since most home users don't have racks maybe you can come up with a more prosumer design that has a rack adapter like what you did with the FWG and the upcoming new one.
Can we please put the cabling at the back for consumers, prosumers, I am sure you will come up with a solution for those more enterprise inclined.
I am assuming this will be an Ubuntu programmed affair, integrated into the app and MSP. The only thing missing now is a decent AP. :)
Oh, can we move to a USB C power connector please.
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Minimum 10 ports, multi-gig 1/2.5Gig. 2x 10Gig uplink ports or combo SFP, fanless would be nice, POE++
L3 capable, VLAN assignment visible on port via multi-colour LED is a nice touch (see Luminex), tight integration with Firewalla firewalls so that security policy can be managed from one app. -
The way I see it is there's a lot of tech savvy people that have bought in to Firewalla. I'd imagine there's a fair number of people that have implemented their own pf/opensense firewalls, probably more ubiquiti routers (ER-X myself). I don't think these people are the target market for the switch. They already know how to setup/maintain VLANs, DHCP bridging, etc.
Personally I think the first switches are best targeted for the people that are using a few desktop switches to connect a few high speed desktops, APs, and a few streamers, printers, etc. The power of a Firewalla switch is to bridge the router to the AP and a few other connections under the simple interface w/o having to remember to tag/trunk ports.
In that vein I think a desktop 8/2 port switch with 2x 10gb (ideally copper, but SFP+ is probably fine), 4x 2.5gb (with a couple POE enabled), and 4x 1gb. If someone has a multi gig gateway then they can use the 10gb otherwise that could a NAS and desktop. The POE would be just for the Firewalla AP (I think 10gb POE is going to blow the budget on the AP).
Personally I have a couple of 24 port switches (a 250w POE and a non POE that I got cheap) as I only have a couple 10gb devices and a couple more 2.5gb (U7-pro, and a another desktop) but not a need to transport a lot of data. Our ISP is 1gb symmetric and rolling 10gb out so at some point I'll upgrade an older NAS and get some 10gb switches.
I could easily see a use for the 8/2 port switch (assuming I can mount rack ears on it).
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Here’s my thoughts
50 or 52 port PoE Switch minimum 500 watts PoE support including support for PoE++ with 2 or 4 10 GbE uplinks. Would recommend it as a 1 GbE switch for the time being, but you’ll want to possibly follow it up with 2.5 GbE ports. If you can combine all the same into 1 switch at launch, all the better.
18 port PoE switch with all the same specs as above, except, 350 w power support. Must have 10 GbE uplinks
10 port switch with 10 GbE uplinks and 250w power budget.
Small GbE or 2.5 GbE 5 port switch that is PoE powered and can be placed behind a TV for connecting all of the devices to (Tv, Sound bar, appleTV/Roku) Ubiquiti makes this and it is frankly my favorite switch for AV installs, but I’d love a version that doesn’t require me to use UniFi SW to manage.
Everything should be Layer 2/3 capable and support multicast routing, 802.1q vlan , and QOS
If you got around to sourcing a 10GbE fiber switch for aggregation, that would be awesome.
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I think the best variant would be 12 port half size 1U rack mountable. Why? Well if some people don’t need that much ports, they can buy one unit. For people needing 24 ports, they can buy two units and mount them side by side to form 1U unit size.
For ports I would like to have at least 4 10G(one POE++) ports, and rest 2,5G all POE+ ports. -
This is going to be outside the box and controversial, but please bear with me for a moment:
Firewalla Tiny Monster:
8-port 100 Gig Managed Switch with dual power supply for under $1000Instant internet fame, "Firewalla brings the network of the next generation to your home and SMB!"
100 Gig? Are you kidding me? Impossible! No - I don't think so... The MikroTik CRS504-4XQ-IN is currently available for $600 (4 ports @ 100G) and quite a treasure. Alas, 4 ports are too little to be of much use (even a 3-host VM cluster with separate HA network would need at least 6 ports, and then you'd want one management port and possibly one uplink).
Stop thinking small, Firewalla! You revolutionized the Firewall market with a tiny monster with a great UI (Gold Pro is arguably your masterpiece so far but the Gold Plus is probably still the better choice because not many people can get 10G internet yet). The value proposition for a 100G Managed Switch by Firewalla is much easier than for the 10G Firewalla Gold Pro: 100G DAC cables and cards can be had for very little money, as "big business" is already moving to 400G, 800G, and beyond. And the instant speed increase is gigantic:
If Firewalla offers the 100G switch, it costs maybe $100 to $200 more in accessories to get a small rack or a whole office 100G-ready. If your servers already run SSDs, this allows you an incredible jump in speed that has not been seen before in networking history. I think, Firewalla should make this happen!
Focus on the revolution and leave the boring, unmanaged 24/48 port PoE+ etc. switches to the usual suspects. There is no need to reinvent the wheel there, there is very little potential to innovate and you will have much harder time to convince people why they should go with Firewalla rather than with Netgear or Ubiquiti there because from the outside, the difference is not much more than your logo on the box. You can always add that to the product lineup later if you really feel the need to.
With a 100G managed switch, things are completely different: You make the splash, you have a first-mover advantage and the unique selling point, your name is on everyone's lips. If you then still want to push out a more sane switch lineup later, with 10G ports and a 25G uplink to the Firewalla 100G monster, then yes, by all means, do it, people will buy those in a heartbeat. But do the revolution first, please :-)
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